EP18 Protect Your Family Business Legacy: Geoff Badger, Badger Investment Group at Canaccord Genuity

Speakers

Speaker 1: Matt Knight

Speaker 2: Geoff Badger

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Matt Knight  00:00

Hello and welcome to Table Talk the show, where we work with business families and advisors and pull back the curtain on succession, governance, leadership, strategy and today, Legacy implementation. I'm Matt Knight, your host and the executive director at the Alberta Business Family Institute. Here's a bit of the backdrop of where we are. Readiness matters. 70% of heirs switch advisors within two years of a transition, yet only one in four families actually have any kind of a written legacy plan. Change is really quite difficult, as we all know, and even the best strategy, we will fail without the right implementation or buy in. And getting family buy-in can almost be more difficult sometimes. And the advisor impact - you know who you're hiring and who you're working with is your outside advisor can make a huge impact on your legacy and your wealth as you go through the generations. 

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Our guest lives at these crossroads. Geoff Badger leads Badger Investment Group inside Canaccord Genuity, and advises multi generational families nationwide. He's pursuing a DBA to study that exact moment where families decide to embrace or avoid facilitated change management. 

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So Geoff, welcome to Table Talk, to start us off. Could you maybe share a bit about yourself and Badger Investment Group for those who may not be familiar with you or your work?

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Geoff Badger  01:22

Yeah. So I've been in the investment advisory space for 31 years. Worked at a number of different organizations, multinationals, did a stint at Merrill Lynch, worked at a major Canadian chartered bank, but I've spent most of my career in the independent advisory space, most of it, in the beginning, was really focused on investment management and all the principles and all of the aspects of you know, are you saving enough? Will you have enough in the financial projections? 

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But about 10 years ago, I had a bit of a career epiphany. It was 20 years I was really trying to evaluate what I was doing in the business and in the space. And at that time, there were a couple things that happened, a couple of catalysts. Number one, I had a client that went through an awful health crisis, and it was without getting into all of the details, it was a very, very traumatic event. I took a very harried phone call from his wife. He was in the ICU. There were serious concerns that he wasn't going to survive, and she was really struggling, because there were some buildings that they owned and managed, there was an active business. There were all the investments. And she was spending her time in the midst of his recovery, or his crisis, health crisis, just trying to wade through documents, agreements. How does rent get paid? Where do I collect it? What do I do with it? And it really struck me that there was an opportunity in these situations to help families get a little bit more organized around their legacy. His legacy plan was in his head, and it was in serious jeopardy of not being executed. They had kids at the time that were adults, but, you know, just really early in their, uh, adult journey. And so it was, it was traumatic, and I it kind of caused me to pause and look at it and say, you know, is there more as a trusted advisor that I could do for a family in that situation? 

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So about the same time that that happened, I was introduced to the family enterprise advisor program that at that time, was being run out of the Sauder Business School. And it really aligned with where I felt I wanted to take the practice. You know, my greatest passion in my life is family. It's my number one value most of all the things that I do professionally, personally and otherwise or in some way shape or form, in service to family. And so the family enterprise advisor designation really clicked in at a similar time as I was dealing with this issue with clients and thinking, how could I reorganize my practice to not only deal with all of the financial issues that clients face, but also help them with respect to legacy. And you know now that most of the families that I deal with are extremely successful and are likely going to leave a legacy, there aren't a lot of advisors, or there weren't, at the time, a lot of advisors who were focused on helping families really develop a proactive strategy or proactive vision for what their legacy should look like. 

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So for the last 10 years, I've been on a bit of that journey. I've worked with some external partners doing this type of work, as you alluded, I did my masters in leadership that was related to what I was doing with respect to families and legacy, but also just kind of a bit of a personal challenge and personal growth. And I'm now doing the DBA because it's really centered or focused on the question about why families choose to do this work or not do this work, because I believe that all families, on some level could benefit from working with an advisor that's really good at helping them identify their legacy goals and their legacy vision.

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Matt Knight  05:26

Nice. So we'll get into kind of some of those things and go a little bit deeper on them in a little bit. But let's maybe start a little bit. Let's maybe back up a little bit more. So maybe picture yourself back in undergrad, back in those days. What kind of first pulled you towards, kind of that capital markets and the financial role that you worked yourself into.

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Geoff Badger  05:47

Oh, wow, you want to go back there. There's actually a pretty good story about that. I actually, I did two degrees when I was in university. One was in sciences, and I kind of started out on a path that I was going to become a doctor, as many pre med students thought they would, quickly realized that I wasn't academically cut out for that, and started looking for alternatives. So I did the after degree program at the University of Alberta in the after degree in business, and it was a very shortened and accelerated program, so I didn't actually have a lot of study in the financial field, and it's ironic. I remember having a conversation with a group of my friends. We were all talking about what we were going to be when we grew up, and we went around the horn, and everyone had their someone's going to be an accountant, someone was going to be HR, someone wanted to do marketing, to the last person, which I was the last person. All of the ones before, none of them were interested at all in sales. And I said 100% my first job at a university will be in sales. But here's something that I'll never do. I will never be a financial advisor because I don't have an affinity for it, and it isn't really a passion of mine. So it's a bit ironic that that was my departure from university, and that I would, you know, not end up doing what I've done. It's been a life lesson, and it's a story that I tell often to students. Is to say never, say never, say never, because you just, you don't know what's going to happen. 

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And so then, in terms of how I got into the industry, and how it, you know, became a part of, you know, my career, just one of those, you know, it was at a point in time in my life I kind of lifted my head up. I was in transition. I'd been doing something that had come to an end, work wise, without getting into too much detail. And it was the early 90s in Toronto. I was living in Toronto, and the industry was hiring. It was booming, and they were bringing the firm that I worked for, I think, brought 150 new hires into the program the calendar year that I took part in it. So it was, it was how I got started. 

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And again, I think you know, what ended up happening was I had a really different perception of what being a wealth manager and an investment manager was than what it actually was. And what I found as I got into it was that it really dovetailed well with my skill set, with what I enjoy. I like people. I like storytelling. I like relating to people, and I like understanding their challenges and issues. And I'm at my heart. I'm a bit of a problem solver. I was the fixer in my family, the middle child, the one that kind of, you know, tried to, you know, keep things on the rails. And so there's a significant part of that mindset that's what I really enjoy about what I do. I like solving problems.

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Matt Knight  08:47

Yeah. And probably a good crossover in skills between good sales people and good financial advisors, especially in some of those softer elements.

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Geoff Badger  08:54

Yeah. And I think, too, that there's a perception of what a financial advisor does technically, but I think it's, it's really about relationship management. And if there's been an evolution in the 30 years that I've been doing it, it's really going way more to the relationship side, the right brain aspects, you know, artificial intelligence. Everybody talks about it, the AI elements, or AI tools in our industry are really, you know, capturing or capitalizing on the left brain activities, yep. And so the advisors, I think that are going to succeed, you know, going forward in our industry, are the ones who can do a good job with the right brain stuff, with the, you know, how things feel, the mission, the vision, the values, and that sort of stuff and that that dovetails really well with this work that we're doing with legacy.

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Matt Knight  09:44

Yep, nice. And then tell us, tell us. Tell us about the origin of Badger Investment Group, you know, why? Why go that route instead of, you know, remaining a loan advisor, or, you know, why evolve into that kind of team approach?

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Geoff Badger  09:57

It's definitely the way that the industry is going, advisors are teaming up. I think the thing that we're realizing is it's really hard to be really good at all the different things, the complexity with which we deal with in our day to day. You just get to a point where each individual only has so much capacity. You know, the traditional model in our industry was you ran your business. You had maybe an assistant or two. You were the chief marketing officer, you were the chief investment officer, you were the chief administrator, like you basically held all those hats. 

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But with the advent of technology and the ability to deal with more clients with bigger portfolios, it's really been a matter of, like, thinking from a team perspective, and bringing in that human resource to, you know, do the different roles that are within the team. 

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So Badger Investment Group is a branding exercise. So it's, you know, it's definitely something that means a lot to me. But I'm an employee of the firm that I work for. We use monikers like Badger Investment Group as a way to market our team within an organization, but the evolution of that has been as I've brought more people into the team, is that what I love about it as a leader, is when you bring really skilled and really energized and enthusiastic people into a team like that. It's amazing when you amp up the intellectual capital of the group, you just, you find better solutions, you do better work. And so that's been kind of the exciting evolution of the Badger Investment Group over the last 10 years, and we continue to grow. 

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Matt Knight  11:34

So at the beginning there, we both talked a little bit about, you know, some of your credentials, and, you know, academic pursuits, you're gonna have enough, enough credentials to kind of work in a university. But let's maybe unpack a couple of them and kind of what they mean to you, but also to the families that you serve.

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Geoff Badger  11:54

Sure. 

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Matt Knight  11:54

So let's maybe start with the CFA, so kind of where you probably cut your teeth in the financial industry. I know it's a really demanding program, but kind of, what part of that CFA experience or curriculum do you still kind of lean on every day or every week or every month in your practice?

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Geoff Badger  12:11

Yeah, I think the best I always tell people, I mean, I have, I have a science degree, I've got a business degree, and I've now got a master's in leadership, so I'm, you know, over credentialed. The CFA is probably the most practical and useful piece of education that I've participated in my career. It was a great foundational step for me. You know, it's a three year, really intensive self study program. I think probably the most important thing that it did was it made me very well rounded. So it's, there's, you know, the first year of the CFA is really kind of general. The second year of the CFA is really driven toward valuation and math and numbers and accounting and all that kind of stuff, which was my biggest challenge area. So it was a great success or a great achievement for me to get through my year or two. 

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And what it did was it gave me a really solid foundational base of valuation, not so that I could go out and do basic Company Research, but so that I could really, you know, walk the walk and talk the talk. Third Level of the CFA is centered around portfolio management. So it was the most relevant, the most useful and the most helpful in terms of just setting me on a great path, I believe, in terms of, you know, the wealth management side of the practice. So it was very foundational. I've been told in the past that I have, you know, what people call a competency issue. I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree with that. It's always been really important to me to have a technical level of expertise that serves my clients well. I mean, the greatest fear that I had getting into the industry was that my exit interview with one of my favorite clients might sound something like we've had a great journey. Geoff, it's been amazing for us, for our families to grow older together. We've enjoyed all the events that you've done and all the interactions that we've had. But as it pertains to the wealth management side of things, we wish we'd almost never met you because we didn't, we didn't achieve our financial goals. So it was that fear that really kind of drove me to really be to really honour the relationship that clients have with us, with respect to trust and putting their future in our hands. 

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And what's so exciting about the evolution of the Badger Investment Group and the work that we're doing was that, you know, it used to be very much a conversation that centered around dollars and cents and having enough and being able to, you know, meet their financial goals of educating their children of, you know, building and buying the homes that they want to live in, or the vacation properties like that. That was a fun part of it. But what's really interesting about the work that we do now is it, it's way more about the family and the broader issues of, you know, the charitable giving, the health within the family, financial and emotional and, yeah, and biological, and it's just, we're getting into just such interesting conversations about what really matters to people. 

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So the CFA, as I say, was really a real technical grounding. And then, you know, as we talk about maybe some of these other things, I can tell you how they've rounded out, you know, the skill set that I try to bring to the table, and that's also kind of rounded out my vision for the team that I want to build and the kind of pieces that I need to bring to play.

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Matt Knight  15:48

Yep, okay, well, let's maybe look a little bit at the FEA designation. So you talked a little bit about that at the intro. And for, you know, for those unfamiliar with it, it's kind of designed specifically for families in the family enterprise space, and as kind of an experienced advisor going into that program, what was kind of the biggest concept or takeaway that surprised you or changed your perspective?

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Geoff Badger  16:11

Yeah, I mean, I think when I started down the road on the FEA, it was a designation to get, and it's, you know, in our industry, we're designation oriented. It's always great to have those letters after your name, but, and I remember specifically thinking about the program. There was a group project that was part of an oral exam, and a group project, I'm like, Oh God, the two things I'm going to hate the most. And it was interesting, because the group project became the catalyst for the evolution of my practice, my vision for how I want to work in the business and for really how to apply the FEA designation, and if I could encapsulate it, I would say the best part of the FEA designation is that it is fostering a cohort of advisors that are ready, willing and able to collaborate on providing solutions for families. 

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I think the biggest challenge that we have as advisors is that where we can be, at times siloed, where, you know, the you've heard the analogy, where this advisor has a hammer, that advisor has a screwdriver, this advisor has a wrench. And whenever we're faced with, you know, challenges within a client relationship, we're always thinking about using our tool to find the solution, even when we because of our experience and being in the industry, know that, you know, what's probably required, along with that is, you know, some collaboration and some some work from other disciplines, and if there's anything that I know about being a family's trusted advisor, you can't have all of the answers. 

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And so the FEA program is really centered around advisors, recognizing that, honoring that, and working together and collaborating together on clients. So that's probably the most exciting thing that I took away from it, and literally in the group project that we did, we had an incredible experience with our family. I ended up working with an advisor who I believe was light years ahead of the pack in terms of this legacy advising. We basically used this process, and I remember we were all sitting around in our group talking about how we were going to do this, and he got to put up his hand and said, Look, I do this for a living. I have a process. And I was like, great. Like, let's not reinvent the wheel. But little did I know that it was going to end up changing the course of my career forever, and it's led to a lot of the things that have followed, because it was such an amazing process, such a life changing process for the family that we worked with, and a great opportunity to provide real value to their legacy.

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Matt Knight  18:50

Nice, and then I think that kind of curtails nicely into the DBA and kind of what your focus is on that doctoral research, what kind of what led you to take this kind of pursuit on, and was it an academic itch? Was it a client driven necessity? Where did that come from? 

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Geoff Badger  19:08

It's probably a number of factors, but one of the things that I believe passionately is that any family or every family, could benefit from a facilitated legacy planning process. And so I worked on this group project. I worked with this external partner. We, together, went out and worked on some joint families together, and I thought this was going to be just take off, and every family that we approached was going to see the merit of it and decide to do it. And I was really surprised and maybe a little bit disappointed to find out that people really struggle with making the decision to run a facilitator process. I think that there's reasons for it, reasons that I'm trying to work through in my research. I have thoughts on it, but I'm a big believer that this is the future of wealth management in our society, or in, you know, in Canada. And so the research is really centered around what are the catalysts for families to either decide to run a process or participate in a process, or why not? And if we can get past the why nots and help people see how it's going to change their lives in a positive way, I think there's more and more advisors are going to be able to do that kind of work. And I really think my vision for where the industry is going, I think 10 years from now, the really, really good advisors are going to be doing this work exclusively.

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Matt Knight  20:47

Interesting. Okay, so maybe to simplify it for some of the listeners like you know that that research question, very simply, is just, you know, what makes a family say yes or no to a facilitated change management process? 

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Geoff Badger  20:58

Yes.

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Matt Knight  20:59

And that's what you're looking at.

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Geoff Badger  21:00

Yeah, and I think, you know, the challenge that I've had a little bit with my existing clients is that I believe they've had a perception of who we are, the Badger Investment Group, the work that we do, and kind of the lane that we've been in. And so we are asking them to think more broadly. And so there's a, there's a, you know, one of the, I think the forefathers of, conceptually, what we're talking about here is Jay Hughes. And Jay Hughes, you know, talks about managing capital within, you know, wealthy families, and he talks about distinct types of capital, you know, the the obvious form of financial that would be, you know, the financial assets, the real estate assets, the cars, the artwork, the all that kind of stuff. But then he talks about two other distinct forms of capital in the family, and that would be the human capital, which is the people, and the intellectual capital, which is the skills that those people bring to bear. And I believe that the truly exceptional wealth managers in the future are going to have as many constructive things to say and as many proactive ideas about how to cultivate culture, manage and steward the other forms of capital that are, that are within a family. 

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And I know, you know, because I've been definitely, you know, people in the past who've known me know that I'm a very pragmatic sort of, I've had a lot of left brain, you know, go this way, go that way, kind of views. This is the, you know, this is the soft side of it. This is the, again, the missions, the visions, the values, like the dreams of the hopes and aspirations of the family. And, you know, traditionally, people aren't always comfortable talking about that with anyone, much less their financial advisor. Yeah. So there's a little bit of a learning curve. There's a little bit of, you know, I think the industry is going to have to do a job more broadly, of encouraging clients to think about this type of conversation however they're going to have it. 

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And it's one of the things you and I have talked about ABFI and the role that you hope to play, and the things that you're trying to bring awareness to for families. And I'm excited about your vision and excited about where you want to take it, because I think families need to know that they need to ask for this type of work, as opposed to, you know, being pitched on it. So I hope we get I hope we can, you know, drive a higher level of awareness for this type of legacy planning, because I think there's going to be families that really embrace the concept, and that ultimately, at the end of the day, what it's going to help them do is function much better in a much healthier way as a family.

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Matt Knight  23:54

And it's early days in the research, but has any kind of findings or things come up that have surprised you so far, or any kind of insights you can share yet.

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Geoff Badger  24:05

You know what I would say? I'm early into the process, so there's a lot of really good stuff that's coming out. It's great to have these conversations. It's great to listen to people who've got experience in the space, either as advisors or on the family side. I think that some of the reasons that people would do it or wouldn't do it are, you know, intuitive and straightforward, but there's been some, there's been some good nuggets. I don't, I don't know that I would necessarily share them at this stage. I'm not trying to be cute or coy.

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Here's what I'll say. To this point in time, the process has been amazing. The conversations have been rewarding, fulfilling and eye opening. And I think that's, you know, going back to my competency issue, what I. Say, I'm hopeful to be able to provide people is empirical evidence around why people decide or don't decide. I don't want it to just be my anecdotal advisory, advisorial position, that this is why families say yes or say no. I really want to, you know, get that, that hard data to say, here's what families say about saying yes and saying no, and again, it's the first step in the process. I mean, there's, I think that there's a lot of room for a lot more research in this area for families. But I've really chosen to focus on the front end of it, because I think, if I'm thinking about where the bottleneck is right now in family enterprise, advising the bottleneck right now is in families being prepared to kind of go that route, to kind of take on the work, take on the work. And if they can, I think if they can develop a level of confidence that it's going to be a good experience. 

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What I tell families all the time is we're doing this work is that we're going to help them have convert difficult conversations, difficult positive conversations, sometimes and maybe difficult negative conversations. And some people's hesitancy centers around we don't want to make things worse than they are. And my response in that situation is that you will have this conversation one day. I think it's for you to decide whether it would be better to have that conversation in a controlled, safe, proactive way, as opposed to a ad hoc, reactive, heat of the moment, heat of crisis sort of way. And you've got enough experience in this space to have seen, you know, how these difficult conversations happen and difficult decisions get made. And it's always better, you know, to proact, than to react. So if the research is leading that way, I would say that I think that's, you know, kind of the direction that we're going to get to. And I'm really excited about it. The plan is to have everything set and settled before our big event in the fall, and hopefully I'll be able to share some very interesting insights to you and to the broader family enterprise community.

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Matt Knight  27:15

Cool to maybe help illustrate this a little bit for some of the listeners as well. Can you maybe think of like a narrative or a nameless story of a family who opted out of this, this type of change management process, and kind of what that cost was for them, and what they could have gained if they went ahead with it?

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Geoff Badger  27:33

Yeah, I think the challenge, and I would love to give a really poignant example, but you don't always get an opportunity when a family says no to kind of follow along all the consequences, but I might share a positive story, one that was a real eye opener for me. You know, we were dealing with a family that was functioning well and successful. I'm going to give as limited detail as possible, because I really, you know, we want to make sure it's an anonymous story, but they were struggling. It was a blended family. I'm a second time around. I've got a stepdaughter and three, three kids of my own. And so when you're dealing with those kinds of family issues, particularly where there's significant wealth, you know, you've got to think about how things are going to play out the legacy. 

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You know, this family had children together. They had children from each from their separate and all of those children were, you know, came from families that had different circumstances, backgrounds and whatnot. And so the main issue for this family was the will, and they weren't arguing about it. They weren't fighting about it. They were struggling with it. And the patriarch was telling a story of how, for 10 years, he'd walked around with a draft copy of the will in his briefcase. This was sort of the precursor to the conversation of what we were there to help them with. There were other issues, but that one was kind of the big burning issue and, you know, they were just really struggling with, like, how do we do this? And so we put them through the process, and within weeks of completing the legacy planning process that my external partner and I conduct with families, we had very effectively passed off the the the work, the tactical work, to write the will to another FEA advisor, a lawyer here in town, where we had laid out all the principles of, you know, the values of the family and kind of the vision for how they wanted to see things play out. We laid that in front of the lawyer, the lawyer was happy to receive that referral, and within a very short period of time, the wall was done. And for that element alone, the process, for what it cost in terms of time and energy and emotion and all that sort of stuff, paid for itself multiple times over, and there was a lot more ground in. That was covered. 

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So, you know, we struggle with this a little bit. You know, in the investment space and in the advisory space, it's always easier to get people to act or react to something they're afraid of and to fear. And that's I've always struggled with that, because I like to think that I'm an optimist, and I like to talk about how good things can be. And so I like kind of sharing positive stories like that to say, like, here's how we make a positive difference. 

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The challenge with the work and the challenge with, like, some of the reasons why people say yes or say no is that it's hard at the outset to really clearly define to a client family what we're going to accomplish in the time that we spend and the money that they spend to do it. We can talk, you know, at high levels, about what it might look like, and we can give anecdotes of like, here's what we've done for this family, here's what we've done for that but if they can't emotionally connect to what we did for that family, then, you know, sometimes it doesn't resonate. 

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But you know, the truth of it is, is that, you know, if families don't do this work, they are going to bump up against challenging and difficult issues. And if they don't have a well thought out process or structure for dealing with these kinds of challenges, they will deal with them. They'll address them in the way that they can. I just, I think that you're going to have a better chance to have a positive outcome or a better outcome if you do it with planning and with a process in place.

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Matt Knight  31:31

Yeah. So how do you get that more proactive approach? So going to change gears a little bit here. We went a little deep there for a bit. Went into some academics, went into some family processes. This is our lightning round. 

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Geoff Badger  31:43

Okay.

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Matt Knight  31:44

We're gonna do five questions. Need kind of five to 10 word answers. No more. Not a lot of thought, just real quick. 

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Geoff Badger  31:50

You're asking a lot of me.

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Matt Knight  31:52

So first one's really easy. Early Bird or night owl?

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Geoff Badger  31:56

Early Bird.

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Matt Knight  31:57

Best gift you've ever received from a client?

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Geoff Badger  32:02

Thank you. 

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Matt Knight  32:02

Legacy or financial planning buzzword you'd like to banish forever? 

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Geoff Badger  32:08

Hmm, I'm a blank on that one. 

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Matt Knight  32:14

We can go back to it. Most game changing course you have ever taken?

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Geoff Badger  32:22

Yeah, I would say the FEA.

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Matt Knight  32:24

And then secret talent that the Badger Investment team doesn't know about?

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Geoff Badger  32:28

The Badger investment team, I don't know that there's anything that they don't know about me. Yeah, I mean, I'm a blank on that one, because I'm an open book. There's not much that my team doesn't know about me, yes.

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Matt Knight  32:47

So speak, you know, we're going to go a little bit more into, kind of, some of the ABFI realm, and kind of talk about some of the tie in with some of those credentials and some of that experience and work that you're doing. So you've recently become more involved with ABFI. We're very thankful for your commitment and your support. You're now our very first legacy partner. Tell us you know why, why you opted for this, what aligned to make you have the conversation and say, yes.

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Geoff Badger  33:15

yeah, look, I've been a I've been a quiet fan of ABFI, your predecessor, I had a very good relationship with and I believe she had a great vision for the organization and took it to a place again I would credit you, leadership wise, you know you and I had talked a few times before I came to you with the notion to sponsor, and I think it was a combination of like you and I talking about your vision for ABFI, and my belief that it's a very relevant and applicable concept and organization for where the strength of the business community is in Edmonton. You know, I've thought about this a lot. And if you compare Edmonton as a geography, an economic geography, to Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, you know, maybe Ottawa, you would toss in there. Most of the significant wealth and success of companies in this geography are centered around private businesses run by, run and owned by families.

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Matt Knight  34:23

yep. 

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Geoff Badger  34:23

And I think, I think it's the number one reason why ABFI has done as well here, being what it is compared to some of the other organizations around the country. I mean, UBC shut theirs down. I mean, that's shocking to me. But you know, family owned enterprises are such a big, big part of the overall economy, but I think it's even more accentuated here in Edmonton. So most of my most successful clients would be, should be members of ABFI. It's the vision for where I'm taking. And the Badger Investment Group for where we want to provide guidance and advice for our clients on their legacy. And so the whole concept of supporting ABFI and supporting the family event is very aligned with what we're doing. 

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And so I had a bit of an epiphany after one of our conversations to say it's crazy that, you know, there isn't a title sponsor for this. And then I was thinking about, well, yeah, and so if I'm, if that's what I'm thinking or saying, like, why wouldn't, why wouldn't Badger Investment Group do it? Because I really want to be active in the space. I want to be active for a number of reasons. I mean, obviously I'm really keen to see Badger Investment Group do well and be successful. But what I really like about this space is that there's so much room for advisors. I'm not insecure or threatened by other advisors who are doing this work. In fact, I want to, I want more advisors to do this work, because I want to raise the general level of awareness of families to this work being done. There's going to be various levels of complexity of advisors who offer this, but I want more and more advisors thinking this way and talking to their clients this way, because it's going to make it easier for all of us to do better work for clients.

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 And the vision for my practice is that I help make the world a better place one family at a time. And I really believe that every time I help a family be better, that there's, you know, if you've done any work around systems thinking, there's a ripple effect. There's a butterfly effect that rolls out from that. And Edmonton is, I It's a very exciting economic geography, from the perspective of, you know, family owned enterprises, there's, there's a lot of work to do here, 

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Matt Knight  36:47

Yep. And I think in Western Canada, like, there's so much opportunity for, you know kind of raising the bar for advisors, but also for the conversations that we need to have with business families. You know, throughout the provinces.

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Geoff Badger  36:59

A lot of people don't realize that the FEA designation is one of the only of its kind in the world, which I found kind of surprising, because this is we're relatively in Canada, a younger country, you know, we don't have as many multi generational, family owned enterprises as they do in, You know, Europe and in Asia. So the the industry is a little bit more nascent, but it's interesting to me that, you know, this designation was founded here, and that when you go and you, you know, you look at what's happening in the United States, and you look at other parts of the world that there, there isn't something like it. So I think in some ways, you know, we're thought leaders here, and I know, I know that you're a big, big advocate of, you know, FEA and and believe in the program and believe in, you know, helping sustain it and whatnot. And I think that that's, I think that's good foresight. I think it's, I think it's the way to go, 

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Matt Knight  37:53

Yep, and it's, you know, that educational and research backed approach to support advisors and family is, you know, that's, that's what ABFI is all about. 

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Geoff Badger  38:02

And I think, you know, again, going back to, like, the reasoning behind my DBA, it is really centered around empirical evidence. Like, I'm a big believer that, you know, having worked for 31 years in the business, I've, you know, I have enough experience that I think I know some of the answers to the challenges intuitively. But I think when you back it up with real facts, real data, it just becomes that much, just that much more powerful. 

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Matt Knight  38:35

Nice, I think we answered this already in kind of that, that first question there. But you know, in terms of, like, what success looks like for you with your involvement with the signature event this year, it's really about elevating those conversations

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Geoff Badger  38:46

Truthfully. That's it. You know, what I hope we can do is really highlight the need for more advisors to do this work, and for more families to engage with advisors in this way. And so for whatever, you know, part I play in Signature Event for whatever I talk about, it'll be very much centered around that. And I kind of like that, because, you know, our industry is very, very competitive. And I'm a competitive guy. I've, you know, played competitive sports going up. And I, you know, I, you know, I like to get dirty in the corners like, you know, the rest of the rest of us. But what I really like about this concept of the signature event and of fostering cooperation and collaboration amongst advisors is that it's, I'm far more interested in being a smaller part of a much bigger client solution, and I'm okay to release the parts of my ego that say, Hey, when it comes to setting up the legal structures, like, I want to bring in someone who has an expertise there that goes beyond what I can deliver to clients. And if they need help with tax, or they need help with banking, financing, whatever, like I want to be. Comfortable saying, hey, go talk to this person, another FEA at a competitor firm. And I'm not insecure about that at all.

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Matt Knight  40:09

Yep. So let's maybe, if we fast forward kind of 10 years, we're 2035, if I did my math right, we talked a little bit about AI. We talked about transparency. How do you think kind of tech transparency and policy is going to reshape legacy planning?

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Geoff Badger  40:26

Yeah, I was having that very thought as I was coming over here this morning, you know, preparing for what we might talk about. It's just crazy how the technology has changed what I do, yeah, if I think back to 1994 you know, sitting at my desk with a telephone book and a telephone and a, you know, a computer, I think we barely had email at that time, to where I am today, and the tools that, you know, my team uses to serve our clients, and it's, it's changing like daily now. So yeah, 10 years from now, wow. 

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Again, what I would say and what I have, I do a lot of mentoring. One of the commitments that I've made in my life is that if I'm ever asked by a young person, a student or someone early in their career, ever to go for lunch, to have kind of an information interview, like, what do you do? How do you do it? How'd you get there? Like, I've never said no to someone on that, so I spent a fair amount of time talking about what I think people in that state of their life should do. And so I think, and I've done this a number of times in my career, I think about, like, what does the 10 Year Vision look like? I've been an early adopter in the past of other dynamic shifts in our industry. 

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I mean, I converted my business from commission based business in 1999 when nobody really knew what fee based advisory was. And now everybody does fee based advisory. And when I did it. When I made the transition, people looked at me like I just said, you're going to starve. There's no way you're going to succeed. You know, charging a flat fee to clients, and I made the transition, it was a little challenging at the beginning, but I've never looked back. And so I believe I'm in another transition phase into this work that I'm doing. I believe that it's going to, I believe, 10 years from now, this is all advisors are going to talk about. And I can tell you that I've had competitor friends, like friends that work out of the investment dealers. Look at my LinkedIn profile and go FEA, what is a family enterprise advisor anyways, or masters in leadership, like, why'd you go get your math? Like, how is that relevant to what you're doing and now you're doing your doctorate? Like, what are you just like punishing yourself?

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And, you know, I'm a big, big believer. I hate to use a cliche, but you know, in lifelong learning, I think the way to keep yourself relevant and keep yourself effective, is to continue to educate yourself and upgrade your skill set. And, you know, have a vision for, you know what, what people are looking for. I mean, I'm, I'm definitely, you know, when you think about leadership styles, I like to view myself as more of a servant leader. So really thinking about how I can help the people around me, either my clients or, you know, the team at Badger Investment Group, like nothing gets me more excited than other people succeeding.  I'm not a jealous person, like I love others' success as much as I love my own. And then if I can play a part in that, that's a really exciting thing for me. I like to be successful for myself as well, and for my family, and for, you know, all the, all the people around me that are important to me. But I think, you know, doing that together with a whole group, where we're pulling on the same rope, like you're supposed to in the FEA, yep. Like, it pulls everyone up, yeah, and that gets me revved. 

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I enjoy that aspect of it because, you know, we've, we've stayed strictly away from, you know, the person who rhymes with bump and all that kind of stuff on this, on this conversation, but there's a lot of polarization in our society, yep. And what I like about this work that we do with legacy and FEA and that kind of stuff is it's, it's not polarizing. It's like, hey, you've got a great accountant, awesome. Let's, let's bring her in and have a more fulsome conversation about what your family needs. Not, not, I'm not in competition with those people from an advisory perspective, so it's exciting,

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Matt Knight  44:37

Yeah. And when you're long term focused, those bumps in the road don't really impact you as much,

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Geoff Badger  44:43

I think so too. It's a game changer for clients and how they view us. I don't like to talk about it out loud, because every time I say it, I knock on wood, but we that the Badger Investment Group, we have a very low client attrition. You know, I can count the number. Of clients that we've had that have left our practice in the last 10 years on one hand, and we don't always get it right. And you know, the client is always right, and sometimes they choose to look for services elsewhere. But I think one of the main reasons why we have such a great client base and a great client relationship is these aspects that we're talking about, like my clients know more so than anything that I care deeply about them and their families and their fears, their hopes, their concerns, like all that kind of stuff. And again, I think that that's where our industry is going. 10 years from now, families are gonna be looking for trusted advisors. The term that I like to use is that we're becoming specialist, generalists. We're trusted advisors who know a lot about a lot of different subject areas, but when it comes to the tactical elements of each of those subject areas, we then send that work off for clients to do with those advisors, like minded advisors who want to collaborate. 

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Matt Knight  46:03

It's almost that, that translational piece of taking all this noise and all these pieces of information and being able to give them actionable steps.

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Geoff Badger  46:10

It's, it's the concept of owner's rep, you know, so as the complexity of the financial world increases exponentially, you know, clients look for interpreters. They look for people that can help them, help with sense making. And so if we know a lot of things about a lot of different aspects of their financial affairs that all link together, and we can help coordinate, supervise, I think that that's those are the people that 10 years from now, are going to be the, you know, the super advisors and, you know, hopefully Badger Investment Group will be kicking around somewhere in that.

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Matt Knight  46:51

Yeah, I'm sure they will be. So one question I like to ask in all of these podcasts is a, you know, what single book do you recommend the most to either friends or families or colleagues. You know, either you know we can make we can take it towards the legacy piece, or it could be more general as well.

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Geoff Badger  47:11

There's a book I buy. Sorry, I will get emotional telling this story. People who know me well know that my brother took his own life about eight years ago now, and so our family, like many, has had a long history of dealing with addiction and mental health. So it's an area, sorry, I'm emotional, but it's an area that is near and dear to my heart. So the greatest book I've ever read is 'Lost Connections' by Johann Hari, and I buy it 10 copies at a time, and I send it to people, sorry. And it's been, it's been, it's been a game changer. It was a game changer for me. I was reading the book when my brother passed away, unfortunately, and I wish I'd brought it 10 years before. I won't get into the details of it, but I would say to anybody that that is a book that you should buy. And whenever I have families within my cohort or within my network who are dealing with these issues. I I send them a copy of the book. So that's my number one book recommendation. 

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Matt Knight  48:29

That's good. 

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Geoff Badger  48:29

1b would be the "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". Covey to me is like, I think that book, that that book was formative. I read that book very, very early in my career, and I think that there's a ton of that book that makes, even to this day, makes a lot of sense.

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Matt Knight  48:48

Nice. So as we wrap up here, when I get what's kind of the most rewarding aspect for you, for working with family businesses.

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Geoff Badger  48:57

Well, I'll tell you this this January, we did a little bit of a reset on our on our service offering. I hired a Director of Client Services. She's been phenomenal, a phenomenal addition, and it was really someone that was centered around helping us create a delightful client experience. So around that, we organized a dinner for all of our local clients to attend, and it was a remarkable night. It's always a great reminder when I put my clients together in a room like that, of why we do what we do. And it was interesting because there was some third party validation on that. One of the things that we did was we had some of our suppliers, some of the product manufacturers, sponsor, you know, they spoke, and then they supported the event. 

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And I was afterwards having a little bit of a follow up with two of them we were, you know, after the event. We went for a quick drink and just sort of a debrief, and both of them said, like, look, we have hundreds of advisors that we, that we do this with, and we go to these types of events like all the time. They're like, we've never seen anything like it. Just the dynamic in the room, the way that the people were having fun relating to each other and really connecting to, like, why they were a part of the Badger Investment Group. 

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So sorry, the question was, you know, what really revs my motor, or what really gets me going? Like, there was an immense sense of pride that I had sitting in the room. You know, my father was there. I always like to, I always like to talk about my dad, because, again, like a lot of these, these deeply held values that I've got around family are centered around, you know, what I learned from him, either directly or by osmosis, and I, you know, I always tell him, privately and publicly that I wouldn't be anything close to, you know, who I am and where I am, and as successful as I am, were it not for him and my mother, in terms of the, you know, the grounding that they gave us with respect to all of that. So you know, for my wife to be in the room, my father to be there, our clients, our team, and for it just to be, like, so much fun and so engaging. Like, that's, that's why I do it. 

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That's, that's, it's funny, you know, I don't my boss. I've had bosses tell me, like, you don't love money enough, you know? Because, again, our business is all about bring in more assets, generate more revenue, make more money. Come on, dummy. Like, that's what you're here to do. I'm like, Yeah, you know, we do, well, don't, don't feel too bad for us. But the thing that really revs my motor and gets me excited about the day is the impact that we have on families. And when it, when it happens in a positive way like that, it's, yeah, it's like oxygen.

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Matt Knight  51:56

Awesome. Well, I think that sounds like a pretty good place to kind of put a bow around things and kind of wrap this up. So thank you again for kind of, you know, mapping out your bit of your journey, and then also kind of your vision for how we can work together and with other advisors to really build up the ecosystem of business families in Edmonton, Alberta and across western Canada, and really look at how we can get more of these business families interested and, you know, willing to say yes to legacy planning in a proactive way. 

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So I really enjoyed the conversation. You know, if this conversation for our listeners has really made you think differently about how you might want to think about legacy or how you want to tackle change. You know, kind of the key thing here that I think came out of a lot of this is just start now, start before it becomes a reactive motion. And, you know, start from a place of proactiveness, if that's even a word, and really, you know, take a look at how you can have these conversations now with your trusted advisor, with your family and with your network around you. 

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So thank you again for being on the episode today Geoff. If you've enjoyed the show, follow Table Talk in your favorite app so you don't miss any episodes. You know, if you have any questions or want to learn more about Badger Investment Group or the Alberta Business Family Institute, you can see the links in the show notes, and then you can take a look at our website at www.abfi.ca once again, I'm Matt Knight, thank you again for joining Table Talk. We'll see you next time

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Geoff Badger  53:24

Well, and if I could just say I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and I also want to thank you for the work you do at the ABFI. I hope that the families in this community recognize the difference that you're making in your vision for the organization. I'm really excited about the 10 year glide path for the ABFI, and I'm excited to work with you.

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Matt Knight  53:43

Yes, thank you. Thank you very much.

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