EP17 Two Transitions, One Business Vision: Jason and Ryan Collins, Collins Steel

Speakers

Speaker 1: Matt Knight

Speaker 2: Jason Collins

Speaker 3: Ryan Collins

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Matt Knight  0:01  

Welcome back to Table Talk. Today we're going to dive into how a family owned steel fabrication business navigates two generations of leadership, while expanding from basically a small shop or basically one truck to a pretty significant industry leader with projects across western Canada, and also diversifying into a family office. We'll hear about this journey a little bit more in today's episode with Jason and Ryan Collins to share some insights on their growth strategy, leadership, transition and the industrial resilience within Alberta. 

Welcome to Table Talk, the show, where we dive into business families and share candid stories of growth, leadership and legacy. I'm Matt Knight. I'm your host and the executive director of the Alberta Business Family Institute.

So welcome to the show. We're going to dive into this conversation really looking at the skylines and the opportunities that have come over the years, and looking at the business that was founded by your parents, Paul and Karen Collins, back in 1984 like I mentioned, starting from that single truck to, you know, now being carried forward, carried forward by the next generation. In 2012 the second generation, so yourselves, and I believe, some other family members, took over a buyout. And then in 2017 they created Collins Capital, which is a single family office now led by their sister Kim and her partner, Tony, I believe. 

Yeah, so Jason Collins is the president and CEO, and Ryan Collins is the vice president. Thanks for joining us, and welcome to Table Talk. Thank you. Thank you so Jason. How about you kick us off? Give us kind of a 60 second pitch. Why? You know what is Collins? Why did GC'S keep on calling.

Jason Collins  1:43  

Okay, well, I think it goes back into the 60s with our family, my dad's older brothers, there was four of them that came over to set up two separate companies. I think they focus mostly on miscellaneous metals, and so they've been in the Edmonton market for a really long time, and they established relationships early, very likable people. 

My uncle John was highly focused on being a professional and fitting into the culture of Alberta. And when he brought his brothers over, he demanded that they look, walk, talk, like Albertans being from Newfoundland, so that was a bit of a challenge. So he had high standards for his brothers, and did a really good job. And they developed very successful businesses themselves and relationships. 

And my dad came over, I believe, for a short period of time, worked with my uncle John and my uncle Mike, and they really just set the tone for him. My dad, I think, moved out here when he was 16, so that's pretty young he was. I think he was in university when he was 15, did that for a year, didn't like it, and then came out here and really started working. I think he graduated and when he was 14, high school

Ryan Collins  3:02  

Yeah skipped a grade, and they only went to grade 11 at that time in Newfoundland. So, yeah, really, really, yeah.

Jason Collins  3:09  

So I think he had good mentors. And, I mean, back in Newfoundland, they had a general store, and my dad was working when he was probably eight, nine years old in the general store, probably sacrificing a lot of things that kids would enjoy, like playing. So he had a bit of a lost childhood served him well, and I think he really appreciates that. And he worked really hard so that we could enjoy the things that maybe he didn't have to the degree that most children would have. He was the youngest of 14. So, yeah, there is a big gap in age 20 plus years between top to bottom, I believe. So he really was raised by his siblings, and his parents were quite old by the time he came along. So yeah. 

Matt Knight  3:53  

So that kind of entrepreneur, entrepreneurial family would have started much before, kind of sure Paul and his generation.

Jason Collins  3:54  

He would have been seeing that when he was probably six, seven years old. Yeah. So it was just, just part of his, his DNA, really.

Matt Knight  4:11  

And Ryan, if you kind of rewind back to 1984 and we were always, we were all quite young then. But what kind of gap do you think your dad saw when he decided to kind of launch that, that first truck. And, you know, maybe even thinking back, like, you know, what kind of role your mom would have played in those early days,

Ryan Collins  4:26  

Right, Yeah, yeah. Just remember the trucks, coming home, the welding truck, and getting to ride around in that a little bit. And, you know, just, you know, they were both really, really hard working. So dad was working every day, all day, and my mom was very supportive in assisting wherever need be in the business. And she was a major contributor to Collins Steel. And so my father in 84 I think it was at 83 or 84 he had, he had Collin's Welding and tough times at that time, and wasn't able to make that work and and, but he didn't give up any started Collins, Collins Industries a year later. And, yeah, just such a through just a ton of hard work and perseverance and no quit in them, was able to to make it, make it work. And it's hard to imagine, you know, dealing with interest rates that were, what, 17 to 20% or something back then. And it's hard to imagine how the numbers, or even like, how that's even possible to deal with, right? So, and I don't know if it would be today, really.

Matt Knight  5:36  

Trying to make it work with, you know, yeah, even what interest rates are right now are challenging for lots of people, yeah.

Ryan Collins  5:49  

So, yeah, in 84 I was only seven, so I didn't have a lot of understanding of what was really going on, right? So, yeah, getting into the earlier 90s, I got more exposed to the business. Jason would have had more exposure to even the first little shop that we had before we moved to the current location. 

Matt Knight  6:08  

Okay, yeah. So this maybe takes back to, kind of, some of those childhood experiences, you know, early maybe in that first shop, or moving to the second one. Kind of, what some of those memories that kind of come out, you know, when you when I first asked that for either one of you? 

Ryan Collins  6:23  

Yeah, I just remember it being really exciting to get a look at it right, like this is where dad works, right? So to get to go see the shop and the equipment and the guys working in the shop, and getting to know some of them, it was, yeah, I enjoyed that environment. I liked the shop environments. And it was, yeah, exciting, just to get a little bit of insight as a young guy as to what dad does, right, and where he's spending most of his time. Yeah, 

Jason Collins  6:49  

Yeah. There he was quite resourceful, because the shop, the first shop that he had, I think he had one out in St Albert before, we never saw that one, but the one just between gateway and Calgary trail. It was really small. There's one way in and out, which isn't really practical for steel, and how they unloaded and loaded trucks. It was just crazy. It was not advisable to set up a shop that way for the stuff that we were doing. So that's the first place I worked when I was 16. So that would have been around 1989-90 in and, yeah, I mean, it was only probably about six to 10 people, maybe six in the shop, a couple draftsmen, my dad, and probably a receptionist, so and then a field crew. So, yeah, he made it work.

 And the guys that he had working for him were really hard working guys and really resourceful and very loyal. I mean, I think probably three of those employees from the original days actually ended up retiring as Collins employees, which is incredible, worked for him for close to 40 years, I would say, and some are still working, but they have their own businesses that support us. And, yeah, they're just - they became family, and he treated them very well. 

My dad was not an easy person to work for, but in a sense, people that are difficult to work for are sometimes easier to work for, because you know exactly what the expectation is. And yeah, there was no mystery as to what he expected, and what was the expectation for jobs and for the clients, and the clients felt that. That's why he grew because if he said he was going to do something, somehow he did it. And it was, it was very difficult, but as soon as he could, he bought some land and built a really nice little shop, and then that grew from, say, I think probably around three to 5000 square feet, to 55,000 square feet, roughly now. And now there's like a third group of owners since inception. So it's really good. We have a great management team now, and they're, they're all very much like we are. And, yeah, it's been a pretty cool journey. 

Matt Knight  9:27  

So let's get into that journey a little bit. So, You know, you first start there when you're 16, yeah, Jason, you know, Ryan, you're probably, you know, couple years behind that before you join the business. 

Jason Collins  9:37  

Yeah. 

Matt Knight  9:37  

You know, fast forward to that 2012 where kind of the g2 or you two are being kind of presented this opportunity, yeah, kind of walk us through that a little bit like, what did that look like? What were you both doing? What were you thinking? 

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Ryan Collins  9:53  

Yeah, it was a lot to try to get, for me to get my head around. I think Jay probably had a bit of a clearer picture looking long term on what that might look like. But for me, I was, you know, just, you know, still pretty young back then, to be presented with something a deal of that magnitude. I've never been through anything like that before. It was like, you know, I had a lot of faith in the strength of the organization and the foundation and the name that that our father built and our ability to continue to perform and grow and continue to deliver. And there was a lot of things that had gone on that gave us a lot of confidence that the customers out there did recognize us as a leader in the industry, and we'd oftentimes be a kind of a first call for when maybe things went sideways on a project with a competitor. So we had, yeah, we had a lot of confidence and faith in our team. 

So, you know, so that's what, where my head was at is, I don't know how to work a deal like this, but I have confidence that we can continue to be an industry leader here and confident that things would work out and to be able to get a deal done within the family. Lot of confidence that that was very doable based on the relationship and everything that we have. Me and Jay, and then both us with our dad. Yeah, no real concerns there. Yeah, yeah. The mechanics of it was more going to be coming out of Jay's mind and the strategy, though, yeah.

Jason Collins  11:27  

Well, we were pretty fortunate. We kind of came on full time roughly the same time Ryan was there a little bit before me. I went to college and played a little bit of hockey down south before joining full time in 97 so I think we were there probably in 96?

Ryan Collins  11:48  

Yeah, I graduated in 95 and then was into the shop pretty much right after that. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Collins  11:53  

So he had been there for a year while I was finishing up whatever I was going to do before getting married and starting a family and that was around 97 so we were both kind of coming in at the same time. So we had 17 years of experience before we bought the company, and we worked at pretty much every level within the company, from labor to driving trucks to working in the shop, putting up buildings, working through the various departments. So we had a pretty good exposure to every aspect of the company, which was great. I mean, we weren't probably experts at we became experts in one area at some point in time, but we had an appreciation of the struggles that our employees would feel within the company that would be caused by our company, because we dealt with them, because we worked in the various departments like we would understand the problems the shop would have with interpreting shop drawings because of, maybe not standardized controls in presentation of drawings, different detailers would present them differently. 

So we had to kind of listen to each other and create an internal customer focus, even from the shop to the field. Shipping. Shipping is very important thing,oftentimes gets neglected the shop can say, I just got to get it out. But getting the right stuff out in the right order became way more important. Because really, where you don't have a lot of control is out in the field. If you don't organize it for the field, you just bleed money, just, rather than just passing the problem on and say, I've done my job, I've gotten it out. But if it's not right, it's like sending, you know, furniture without instructions. You know, it's very difficult to organize and make hay out there, but yeah, it's, it's, that was a really good thing, whether it was intentional or unintentional. Our exposure to different aspects of our production line was really good for us.yeah. 

Matt Knight  14:04  

Yeah. So kind of haven't seen everything within the organization. Had probably, you know, pretty good respect and relationships with other people within the company that you've worked with over throughout the years. 

Yeah. So, you know, in kind of, like family business, research or literature, there's typically a model called the three circle model, yeah. It's as complicated as it sounds, yeah. It's three circles. And one of them is ownership, yeah. And they both kind of represent different mindsets and different roles that you play. And you know, stepping into a new circle has its own challenges and opportunities. 

So if you think back to kind of when you went into that ownership role for day one. You know, whether it was, you know when the deal was finalized or you know when you changed your business card. I don't know when the trigger for you when it would have been but what do you how do you, how do you remember that? Remember that being different? How do you remember, you know, is there any, you know, a big decision that you wanted to do, or something you vowed never to change? What do you think about when I ask that, and I know that was a very long, complicated question. 

Jason Collins  15:02  

A good question actually.  

Ryan Collins  15:04  

Actually, yeah, as far as the transition it was, we pretty much were carrying on as we had been operating for several years prior, right? Because our father was, you know, he had committed, I think, as well, to to letting go of control and trusting that we were, you know, he saw this coming, and he had a high level of trust in the team, so he so nothing really changed as far as operationally, but yeah, so it was more of a really cool milestone, I guess, in the legacy of the business. But it was kind of business as usual as far as operations went, right?

Jason Collins  15:44  

Yeah, because we had operational responsibilities, so that didn't change, but it was we established a board of advisors, and we were fortunate enough to get some really good people on board, and they allowed us to think about wearing the different hats, and when you're in the operation role, that's what you are. And as an owner, you have to think and you're responsible for other things. So it allowed us to have that distinction. 

When we bought the company, we had a pretty clear conversation about what our goal would be when we bought it, it would be like a 10 year horizon, and we'd be ready to sell within 10 years of buying it. And that was clear to my dad when we purchased it. He wasn't really happy about that, because he really dreamed about third generation taking over. But it really isn't a feasible reality when you think about how much value you keep building in a business and now kids that are coming in at the age of 20, how do you ask them for so much money to own something that they may or may not want and to wait for that, so we just basically promised that we would encourage the entrepreneurial spirit and the third generation, encourage them to pursue their dreams, and if they want to turn them into businesses, will be there to guide and support and invest and and help them along. 

And yeah, it was, it was, it was pretty, pretty simple, once we got that board of advisors in place, because it got us thinking the right way do what's best for the business, that's the most important thing. 

We witnessed it from our young age, that he just kept investing in the business. And we never lived outrageously. If you think back to like the early 80s, we we never had more than one car. My mom always cleaned houses. She always did something. She made our clothes. She did everything. When she went grocery shopping, it was us on the back of a toboggan, and she would haul us to the store, and we would hold the groceries and pull them. She would pull us back. And I mean, that's just how we grew up, so we didn't know anything different. But when you think about it now, you're it's pretty inspiring, like as a child, that's just the way it is. You don't know how other people live. And my dad came home late every night and he looked black, like he was dirty, and that's just the way it was. 

And we didn't see a lot of dad when we were young, but as we grew and we're in school, he was at every event like he he had built a business with people you could trust to take on responsibility, and he was there for those things, still working hard, but coaching hockey, coaching soccer, going watching basketball, cross country running, driving us, you know, across into BC for cross country running meets, I guess, pretty big commitment with five kids and and not a lot of money, right? Because it was always going back into the business. 

Matt Knight  19:00  

Always been reinvested. 

Jason Collins  19:01  

I think my mom was massively responsible for the growth, because she always set aside money. Every month she put money aside, and that allowed us to grow because we had something. She could buy land, invest in a shop, and new equipment. We always had great equipment, not the early years. We had old stuff, but we always buy new stuff now and with cash. So it's, it's just, you know, when you think about and reflect on this, it's pretty awesome, because it, it wasn't really intelligence, it was discipline and responsibility. It doesn't take a great amount of intelligence. It takes way more discipline and responsibility not to diminish how smart they are. But we're not the smartest people in the world, like not even close.  

Ryan Collins  19:53  

It's more that kind of responsibility and stewardship, almost, that doing the right things at the right time, even though the alternative might be easier, 100% thinking there's doing some research on IKEA. It's going to be in a class that I'm teaching, yeah. And they have, they only ever took out $500 or 500 kroner loan, yeah, when it was when he first started it, yeah, to buy, like, a box of pens or something like, yeah. And then everything else to this day was funded by cash, and it's just like…

Jason Collins  20:23  

Just a great discipline

Ryan Collins  20:24  

Thinking of how you could do that from like, a box of pens to 500 stores. 

Jason Collins  20:30  

Yeah, it's fun. It's funny to watch my dad irrationally react to people's decisions, to buying things that we didn't need. Like and it would be things like paper and pens and pencils, staplers and hole punches and stuff like that. That stuff would drive them crazy, and the decision to invest in really good equipment was pretty rapid. So yeah, I was people got a little bit nervous about their purchasing decisions, because if they're not contemplated and they're not necessary, he sees it as waste, and rightfully so. It seemed like an irrational response, but sometimes it takes an irrational response or to get people's attention and focus on the right things, and you can do without a lot of things. Just because somebody else has it doesn't mean you need it. And find a way. So the resourcefulness was incredible.

Matt Knight  21:23  

So is that kind of, you know, when I think about Collins, most of what I know of the business is more on, kind of the innovation and always on kind of the leading edge, whether it's like, you know, BIM or IPD or other acronyms that are out there, yeah, was that kind of a change when, when, when you two started having more of a role where it was that next generation wanting to invest more in innovation and technology, or like, look, any ideas on that origin story? 

Ryan Collins  21:48  

I think he was equally as big on that training and staying and technology for integrating the building, information modeling, like you mentioned, right and on the tech side of things, training, investing in people that way. He was equally as big on that as, you know, ensuring that we had the right equipment for being efficient in the shop as well, right? So. 

Jason Collins  22:09  

Oh yeah. Well, I think he was really good at identifying the equipment. And then when it came to us, we weren't good at that stuff, but what we were good at was looking at, because we got really into the Lean journey around 2009 was looking at where the waste was, and technology can create more waste. So we got to look at, so he would focus on, if we got a piece of equipment, why isn't it running and and that would make him, you know, a little bit nervous if it wasn't always running and and then we looked at where the waste was and how we could increase throughput by leveling out the workload…

Ryan Collins  22:53  

Rather than creating bottlenecks. 

Jason Collins  22:55  

So we looked at how we could get what we wanted more out the back end. And if we could prove that, we could prove that if the machines are sitting idle, it's because they should be. And it took us probably three or four years to really prove that, because we fumbled through it a bit because of our interpretations of how to apply lean to our shop. But once we did, man like we, we boosted productivity by a lot. I think our sales from, I'm spitballing, but from 2000 to 2007 went from, say, around the four to $5 million mark to $52 million, and that would have been without maybe hiring 10 more people. 

Matt Knight  22:55  

Wow, pretty drastic change. 

Jason Collins  23:37  

That's huge. And that was - had nothing to do with technology. It had to do with using it as a tool and not as this is what we got to be pumping stuff through. And yeah, lean really helped us out with that. And yeah, we got everyone trained in it. It was an interesting journey. It was not without its struggles, because of everyone's interpretation, then it became a bit of a religion, and you really got to watch out for that, because people matter a lot more than everything. Yeah, so you can't use it as a religion, and that's what it can become. So I think the guys have integrated those things now they're just natural. So, yeah,

Ryan Collins  24:25  

Yeah. I remember it felt like we would, you know, get so far down the line and then almost reset, and then try again and reset, because it's easy to get attracted to the principles that make sense in Lean. And then we have to understand that there's a lot of different, you know, generations in the shop, different mindsets, different levels of maybe adherence to some of these principles, or understanding or believing in them to be true, right? So, the culture piece is huge. So that would be the recommendation, is just really, you know, focus on the communication up front. With the team, and try to get a sense of, you know, what is the receptivity amongst the group overall, before trying to just implement these, these processes, right? But I think, all in all, I mean, it went really, really well, and we have such a great team that they got on board with it. It's just naturally, I think you're gonna fumble out of the gates a little bit, yeah? At the same time, we couldn't have done it any better, yeah?

Matt Knight  25:27  

So maybe in those early days, like when you're going through that transition and today, how do you kind of split up roles between the family members, or between whoever's in the operating business? Anyways? 

Jason Collins  25:38  

Well, interesting. Through our board of advisors, we came across a great way of identifying skill sets and aptitudes and stuff like that. So basically, just once you identify those, you have a common language or understanding of how people need to be communicated to, and you just put them in an area of strength, and that's it. So once you find your area of strength, who cares about the prestige of the role you're working to your strength. And if you can do that with your employees, it takes humility, because a lot of people focus on position rather than effectiveness. So we just found out a lot about each other. It was fun. What were they called? Those personality things that we did some type of profile.

Ryan Collins  26:22  

DISC profile.

Jason Collins  26:23  

Yeah, we did that, should remember that. But we all did it, and we had a lot of fun with it, and we read each other's and we started as a management group. Understand that we started before hiring. We put a lot of people through that. Just understand what are they saying in the interview, and what is their work method, and do they align? Because some people will interview for a position rather than to be put in a place where they can succeed. So once we did that, like we had, obviously over the years, had people elevated to places where they're ineffective because they were so good where they were before. And that's a very common mistake in business. So we're okay with overpaying for the position if you're really productive. So that's something I shouldn't say we're okay with that. It's just the reality, you're better off overpaying because you elevated someone and then putting them back in the previous position and paying same.

Ryan Collins 27:21  

Pay them for results. 

Jason Collins  27:22  

Yeah? Like, it's not, it's not great management, but it works better than writing out your losses. Yeah. 

Matt Knight  27:30  

So let's maybe dive into the family office a little bit. How did that come up? Like, where it was the origin of that how? What does it look like today?

Jason Collins  27:39  

Well, we're not involved other than advisors and or consultants or partners in that it became because when we purchased the company, my dad had cash to invest, and he had a daughter that was really bright, and her husband's really sharp too, and they had a vision to grow in other areas, so they started another company, which is doing quite well, I believe. And my dad just loves working with family. And why wouldn't you? 

Yeah, and yeah, so it just really was the thought I want to do more. I've got all this money now, and I don't have any desire to spend it. I'd like to grow it. And he had a vision for the grandchildren at the time. So I think that was probably the inspiration, something that would be around as a legacy piece to Collin Steel, because it was an uncertain as to what would happen when we bought it, because we told him, it's a 10 year horizon for us, and it ended up being 12, yeah, which is fine, but we stuck to plan. We always looked at it and said, This is what we got. And we told them, we're not selling it to our kids, yeah, or any of our siblings kids, either, because they won't be old enough. And yeah. And so that's yeah, that was our commitment to the industry and and we would, if you don't put a timeline on it, you end up working until it's too late to make a plan to succeed the business. 

Yeah. And also, we're very engaged management group that was very entrepreneurial, that wanted to better themselves and invest in themselves. That's essentially what they've done, and they did great. So last year was their first year on their own as an ownership group, and they just did awesome. And we expected them to, because they are really good, hand picked by us and, and my dad, yeah, got some great legacy employees from my dad, like they're a bunch of misfits for the most part, but he saw something in them. And, and we're not flashy, they're not flashy people, or they're just humble, hard work. Working quietly, humbly, intelligent people that just actually do so much better than everybody else's, I think because of their ability to work together. 

Matt Knight  30:14  

Yeah, so maybe like, so if we look at the details there, a little bit so you said we're it's now the third generation, or third generation of owners, not necessarily family members. Could be Collins Steel family members. What did that look like? Was it an ESOP? Was it a management bio? Like, what did that deal look like, and what was the thought there versus?

Jason Collins  30:34  

It was a management buy out. It wasn't an ESOP. We kicked all of those ideas around, but for Ryan and I to exit, we wanted to exit like we wanted a significant chunk. We didn't want to sell 10% we wanted, we wanted to transition majority ownership. That's really a big psychological piece for both us and them. They own a bigger stake. They're fully engaged. They knew the story of how we did it, because we essentially had a 10 year horizon, which we had the ability to pay out in five years, which was great, because we kept reducing debt, reducing debt, reducing debt, and they're on the same path as we were 10 years ago, so they will have our level of success or more, and we hope more, definitely, yeah, we want the best for them. We believe in them, and it was clear from the get go that they were in the right mindset. 

So it was a pretty simple, pretty simple. They took out a bank loan, they put in some equity. Yeah, they took on the risk, and similar to what we did when we bought it, and after one year, they reduced a significant chunk of debt like we did. We had had it written out like we were our intention was to pay it back in five years, but anniversary dates I had of this is how much because we had, interestingly enough, we had three different loans to pay out, just because of the amount of companies that were actually buying. Okay, and we paid out the first loan after the first year, and we put exactly that much money towards my dad, so he kept getting cash. So he needed that's why Collin's Capital kept getting cash. He needed something to do with it. He has more ambition than just handing it over to a portfolio manager. So yeah,

Matt Knight  32:38  

Not going to buy a new car or another car. 

Jason Collins  32:41  

Oh he'll always buy a new car, but it's never really that braggadocio. 

Ryan Collins  32:45  

No, no, yeah, I'd say from a from a legacy piece as well. It just felt really good working with the management team and the guys that had put so much hard work into the organization for so many years. We did talk to other interested parties previous to that, but felt really good when we realized that it was very likely going to go with the direction that it ended up going. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Matt Knight  33:10  

Well, let's so we have a bit of a newer thing that we're trying in the podcast now where we're just doing a lightning round. Okay, so we're kind of halfway through. Want to share energy up again, yeah? So really, really quick answers here, and let's just kind of go back and forth between the two of you, whoever has an answer first. So first paid job in the family business,

Jason Collins  33:29  

Mine was organizing bolts, which seems silly now, I was getting paid very little, but there was just pails of bolts on the floor, and I was without any experience, supposed to match everything up, because my dad saw it as money and, well, yeah, I didn't really love it, but I I did it

Matt Knight  33:46  

Paid by hour, or paid by bolt? 

Jason Collins  33:48  

Paid by the hour. Piece work. You might have done better, I guess, because I was a little slow. 

Ryan Collins  33:56  

Probably would have been cleaning the site area where we built the new shop before we built, or it was probably just under construction. But yeah, a buddy and I got to go out and work for a couple days just picking up garbage cleaning and then, yeah, then eventually in the shop, doing all the, all the similar type jobs, drilling holes and all the kind of grunt work. But yeah, 

Matt Knight  34:19  

Nice. This one can have some creativity around it, but, like, you know, one tool that you can't live without, whether that's a, you know, a lean principle, an iPad, or whatever it is, like, or something in the shop, or

Jason Collins  34:32  

I'm old school notepad, like, yeah, I can live without all the technology. I'm terrible with it. Yeah, I've created enough headaches for everyone, sorting out my technological misfires, but yeah, I just always take notes. So I have a bunch of diaries of meeting minutes and plans and everything just in a simple notepad.

Ryan Collins  34:54  

I'd probably be the opposite. I plan on taking notes sometimes, but. Then I'll never go back and look at them. So probably, yeah, probably the phone I would, I would go to more and Voice Note things, yeah.

Matt Knight  35:09  

Kind of you know, biggest piece of advice from, from your dad, or maybe from your mom, that stick out in your mind?

Jason Collins  35:16  

Cash. pay for things in cash. Don't take out loans. I think that was the what hurt him in 1983 the most, and he still remembers it in the bank, and we'll leave them out of the conversation, but he'll never deal with them again, because they refuse to support him through and they probably could have, and obviously he could have, because he's built a successful business that's now 41 years old. So they miss, they misfired big time there, and they keep knocking on the door trying to get back in, but they won't. 

So yeah, like he, he just said, don't take out a loan. Pay cash. And he paid cash for land, for shops, for trucks, for everything, his houses, his cars. Never drove a flashy car. I think he bought his first new car when I was in second year university, brand new car. He always had a good car, but it was always used and always paid for in cash. So that means a lot and a lot of people, Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a principle of using loans to grow, and we have done that, but we've always had a pretty good supply of cash to market. So, yeah.

Matt Knight  36:35  

Ryan? Anything different?

Ryan Collins  36:36  

Yeah, I would just say, probably not so much, maybe spoken words or advice or anything, but just the actions and seeing his strong dislike towards any form of waste, like we touched on earlier, I remember, I think I left a pair of shop gloves on the driveway at home in the rain one time, and they were perfectly good. They were and, yeah, he let me know that those were $3 gloves, and you don't just leave them laying around when you could use them for work the next day, right? So that it's like loud and clear, got it.

Matt Knight  37:06  

Kind of favourite, favourite project or build that you were, that you got to be involved with?

Ryan Collins  37:15  

Favourite project? I don't know, I think about like Jay was on site doing the install, so he had better exposure to the actual project going up. I got to go to the Winspear Centre when we were hanging some big rods. And I didn't work in the field because I was afraid of heights. So I preferred the shop floor. I would have preferred to be on site because it was, you know, summertime, get outside and beautiful, right? But so I remember being on site at the windspear and getting to do some work with some of the more senior iron workers and and just being up on the scaffolding, and even before the building was complete, just kind of kicking the rocks on the scaffolding and the acoustics and there were just incredible. And I was just thinking, like, wow, this is going to be cool when it's done, for sure,

Jason Collins  38:00  

Yeah, for me, like, I think that the most fun thing to talk about is the succession of the business from my dad to us, and how that deal came together, and how many things we had to consider. It was pretty cool. I mean, we did things probably kind of counterintuitive to what most business acquisitions because we had to think about our siblings. So we had a valuation that gave three ranges of value, and we paid the max value so that we would never short change our siblings and their inheritance. And for that, we negotiated the best terms that could make that happen for us, which meant less cash down, a very strict repayment regimen. And it just, I think it just worked out really good, because.

Ryan Collins  38:56  

Very fair win-win. 

Jason Collins  38:57  

Yeah, and we had to have the tough conversation about it not being passed on to our children, not as a guarantee, not that we wouldn't consider it, but it's just Dad, you have to be okay with this, because it's not our focus, and this isn't our baby, it's your baby, right? It was never our baby because we didn't create it, yeah, so that was pretty cool to even that it even happened. There was so many moving parts, but being transparent and honest was the most important thing. 

And considering people that were outside of the deal, our siblings, our mom, well, she was in the deal, but she was kind of not involved in the inner workings. We had to consider all of those things, and it felt really good, like it felt peaceful, like it was a peaceful transition.  Nobody fleeced the other guy. And and we were able to capitalize on that experience with the next, next transition, which is our management group, by taking a very similar focus, even though there's way more parties involved, we had to balance those things so that it was doable for them, but we knew it was done in the past. We had just lived it. 

So it's a very similar deal. And I don't think a lot of acquisitions go that way. They usually go. Somebody gets a little bit dissatisfied. And I think there was almost complete satisfaction in both the deals. There's always things that one party would want a little bit more of, but what they got in the terms side balances that more than balances it. So terms to me, are so important in a deal. And

Matt Knight  40:43  

There wasn't too many highly contentious issues? 

Jason Collins  40:46  

Well, once we disclosed everything our intentions, what is most important for you, Dad, we hit on those things and it went really good.

Matt Knight  40:59  

So five, five siblings, and it was just the two of you who did the buyout? 

Jason Collins  41:03  

Yeah, yeah. 

Matt Knight  41:04  

And then how did that? You know, you said that you wanted you balanced the terms to make sure it was fair for long term and for payment terms and valuation. Tell me a little bit like, how did that relationship dynamic play out between the two of you, your parents and then the three other siblings.

Jason Collins  41:23  

Well, for Ryan, I first we had to discuss like, I had to know how in he was, yeah, and so we talked a lot about about how much it meant to each of us, because I was willing to do it if he wasn't, and I just wanted to know exactly if he was comfortable or not, not, not to do something that he didn't want to do.

Matt Knight  41:44  

Yeah, he had to be in, right? 

Jason Collins  41:45  

And so once we got that established, it was very easy. So we went in basically 5050, and we had another sibling Kim, our sister, who really, actually wanted in. And Ryan and I were like, well, and maybe we're a little close minded at the time in experience, maybe we just didn't see how it made sense to have another partner that wasn't going to be involved in the operations. But now I can see that, that it may have made sense. It worked out, and it was a couple of discussions with Kim, who's just an unbelievable human being. So it was pretty reasonable, pretty easy to get there, but it was a non starter for us, which is maybe too big of a foot to put down, but at the time, pretty young, inexperience with that stuff. And I think overall, was the right thing. I think it was the right thing. Yeah.

Ryan Collins   42:42  

She found her role now in Collins capital. And yeah, with her background in real estate law in in Vancouver, on major development projects and just a natural fit in what she's doing now, yeah, on the Collins side, so doing awesome.

Jason Collins   42:55  

Yeah, and we thought we're working it maybe not the best logic, but I think it was pretty good for for the time. I mean, we didn't have enough experience to see it the other way. Yeah, 

Matt Knight  43:09  

Well, it's a pretty complicated space of that fair versus equal. Yeah, you're all siblings, yeah, some are in business, some are out. How do you balance all those factors? It is complicated.

Jason Collins  43:19  

It is. 

Ryan Collins  43:20  

Yeah, it is. 

Matt Knight  43:20  

So maybe with those complications, and, you know, kind of some of the other dynamics that you've gone through and how, you know, kind of being at the, you know, going through a buyout like that, or the head of a company can sometimes make you feel a little bit lonely and and, you know, needing, needing some conversations and support. 

Sometimes, let's dive into that. Like, where did you two go throughout this journey? For kind of that outside perspective, you mentioned the board for that accountability. Like, did you do? You know, peer forum, CEO round tables, local watering hole? Like, what helped you through that? 

Ryan Collins  43:50  

Yeah, a little bit of a few of those. Probably we had, we had a board in place for a little while there that helped both. Had experience in the entrepreneurs organization for about eight years, so had that as an outlet with good peers there to navigate some, uh, some of those conversations. So those would probably be the two big ones. Probably my time in the entrepreneurs organization would be the natural place to.

Matt Knight  44:18  

Kind of sharing those experiences with peers and EO and then working with your board.

Ryan Collins  44:24  

For sure.

Jason Collins  44:24  

Yeah, well, that for sure. Like I did that as well. And I really think it wasn't ever lonely at the top, if you want to use that term. I think a lot of CEOs and presidents may say that, but honestly, we were working with our staff like, we were, like, if I had a responsibility in an operational role, I was not even their superior. I was there. I was their, you know, supplier. So they were my customer. I was kind of heading up project management and estimating and then overall operations. So we just worked together. So I deferred a lot to the talents of our department leads and even the guys on the floor, our shop supervisor, our field subcontractors. We had to serve them. 

So we always kind of looked at it as, if I'm in operations, I got to be effective, and they're my client, and I gotta, I gotta treat them that way. So it wasn't really about authority. It was more about what am I responsible for? When it came to authority, we had group discussions about who's gonna be responsible for what? So, yeah, that mindset helped a lot, and that was obviously a lean principle. 

So we really, really liked how it humbled you. It wasn't like pulling the pulling rank, because as soon as you do that, you'll drop a ball and you'll eat it. If you don't have the humility to say, You know what? This was my responsibility. I said I would do it. I didn't. That's not on you, that's on me. I'll be better. And I think that that mindset really helped us. I mean, we were just working together. I never really felt like I had any authority. 

Ryan Collins  46:22  

Yeah. Well, that is a pretty, pretty close family unit, I would say. And it was not a lot of ego. There very a lot of trust and respect and honest conversation. So relationship being so strong that it was safe to have open, honest conversations and not, like I said, not a lot of ego, I don't think, from any of the key guys that we had working with us. 

Matt Knight  46:44  

Yeah. So you had, kind of your leadership teams and people who are now the owners really helping me through a lot of that journey as well. Oh, big time. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Collins  46:51  

We had Rob step in, say, six years ago. Maybe it's seven, though bad with timelines, it's at least six. And he was to come on as a VP, but he was president within three months. Really like operating as a president. He's formerly president now, and he we thought it would be a, probably a good 12 month transition, but he just knew everybody. Yeah, already, yeah. He didn't necessarily know our market, but he quickly adapted. He's just a really, really smart guy. And yeah, I worked probably part time for three months, and then after that I was, I really wasn't necessary, other than old relationships with clients they would call and I could make some introductions and or ensure them that the new guys had it, and it's been pretty seamless. They've done an amazing job.

Matt Knight  47:46  

And then, right? And so this, you know, maybe some of that peer experience maybe led you to found, or CO found, a project called Longship. So it's a men's, you know, peer group, both, you know, Jason and Paul and myself and you are all kind of members within that, what gap did you see and kind of what led you to helping to build Longship? 

Ryan Collins  48:07  

Yeah.

Matt Knight  48:07  

Tell the listeners about what it is.

Ryan Collins  48:09  

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Had been talking with close friend of mine, Cody Lakevold, for quite some time on what we may be able to do together. And then our other partner, John Trapp, had joined the conversation. So we were just kind of having, having coffees for six months to a year, talking about where we where we felt like we could transition. We had the opportunity because it was freed up from responsibilities at Collins, and had been that way for some time. So I was always curious about what the next business might look like. 

And, yeah, I think we all kind of felt called to focus on something that we felt was maybe really needed in society, the way the world is, where the world is right now. And I think coming out of the COVID era, there was a lot of isolation. There was a lot of challenges that people were dealing with. So a lot of men were struggling, I think, to find community of like minded guys that they could, you know, have conversations with when, you know, where a lot of the stories were kind of similar, like, I don't have that peer group anymore. We kind of lost it through as I got older, or whatever it might be, right? 

So, so yeah, we put the organization together just for an opportunity for men to get together and support each other, learn from each other, grow together and together with our other partner, Mark Devine, out of California. He's been a really good mentor for us and educator, and just a really valuable partner to have too as well, and just providing some guidance for us as we navigate what this thing wants to be. And it's been interesting to watch it kind of grow. 

Sometimes we think we know what direction it needs to go in, and then it. Just kind of reveal itself through, you know, people coming on and providing some feedback and things like that, right? So it's been a really cool project to be involved in and looking forward to where it's going to go. 

Matt Knight  50:12  

Nice, you know, I've been involved for that long, but I've seen huge growth, both in the individuals that are there, but also kind of in the organization overall, yeah. So maybe taking that to a personal level for either of you, is there kind of a breakthrough moment from, you know, longship or other peer groups that have kind of reshaped how you think about the relationship with, you know, either your siblings or your dad or you know your employees or your you know your new your new owners.

Ryan Collins  50:40  

Yeah, I think just being on the journey of, you know, wanting to kind of taking, I guess, the like the Lean approach continuous improvement to your own personal development, right? I've had the opportunity to meet some really interesting educators. So I think just focusing on the things that have probably tripped me up over several years, like the cost of being judgmental towards others and how detrimental that is, both to yourself and to that individual in relationships and things like that, and just trying to apply those mindsets to ensure that, yeah, that we're not creating false realities and and unnecessary things that don't actually exist. We probably create the bulk of our own suffering, and it's primarily unnecessary, right? But we have a tendency, to create, to create that stuff. So, yeah, just really, really fortunate to have, like, a guy like Mark Devine, you've met, right? And he's provided some of that education for us, and opened my eyes to just new ways of thinking. And, yeah, 

Matt Knight  51:57  

Jason, anything to add? 

Jason Collins  52:00  

I forget the question.

Matt Knight  52:06  

Another question that I typically try to ask everybody on this show, yeah. And it's, you know, kind of what book or, you know, course, or something like that, has kind of changed the way you think the most personally or professionally. It's almost like a book recommendation list for listeners?

Jason Collins  52:22  

Well, there's so many good books out there. What is something? Something? There's a trust book. I forget the Speed of Trust. Speed of Trust is a really good one. Yeah, I think anything almost biblically based, based on a principle of the Bible is, is what I would focus on. I mean, we're here to serve, so just following the example of Christ is pretty important to our family. I mean, that's the success of the business. Is basically, a wholehearted commitment to that, whether we manifest it or nail it, is kind of irrelevant. We always rally back to it, and that's was instilled in us by our parents, and it's never led us in the wrong direction, and it's allowed us to humble ourselves when we make mistakes, instead of blaming, taking responsibility. The common denominator in all your problems is you. So you just look in the mirror and say, What could have I done to instigate a better outcome in every situation? And the only way you actually reflect on that is when you drastically miss the target, like when you nail it. I mean, there's not as much to learn. I mean, the pain of loss is way more profound than any victory that you have. 

In fact, I've found that being an athlete, I mean, winning delivers, sometimes just a feeling of success, but losing is emptiness, like it is hollow. It is almost like someone died, like it's so it's a better teacher, and I will never call it failure, because there's only one failure is quitting. I mean, losing is part of life, and it's an opportunity to analyze and look at whether it be in relationship or a game or a bid, someone chose someone else because of something, and look in the mirror and take responsibility and alter your game plan and alter your internal workings and the spirit within you to produce outcomes that are favorable for the people that are choosing you. So yeah, I think that. That would be, maybe not specifically a book, but yeah, big book, yeah.

Ryan Collins  55:05  

I don't know if I've ever recommended a book. I'm always cautious to do that, because then I feel like, I mean, I have given out one book in particular to a few people. But I am cautious because then people feel like, oh shit. Now I gotta read this. I'm not gonna follow up with you to see if you read it. 

Well, a new educator that I'm really interested in learning more from is a guy by the name of Peter Crone. He was at a fit for service event that I went to in California recently, put on by Aubrey Marcus's fit for service team. They run really good events, but Peter Crone is dubbed the mind architect. But a really, really good educator who helps people kind of expose, I guess what I touched on earlier, just kind of how, how we tend to trip ourselves up with our way of thinking and things like that. But a brilliant guy.

And then there's a book that I had recommended to a few people over the past couple years was a book called psychedelic medicine by, I think, Richard Louis Miller. His name might be, I forget the name of the author, but it's a really interesting book. Just he was, he's a radio host, and he went through a few of a few of the plant medicines, and had experts on in radio format question answers. 

So really good information on the utility of some of those medicines, and then also looking at the history of psychiatric meds as well, right? So just from a mental health perspective, everybody knows people that are obviously struggling with on the mental health side of things, right? So I really enjoyed seeing the history of how my mental health was treated in the 50s and 60s, and with a lot of prescription medicines and and now with the, you know, with the emergence of some of the plant medicines being more, you know, coming online legally and more acceptable, just good information to have in in our awareness for for another way, we have lots of friends and family that you know struggle with mental health and are relying on some of the old, archaic ways of dealing with them and and unfortunately, not getting the results that I think could be available. So yeah, I really like that one

Matt Knight  57:20  

Just kind of maybe final question to wrap up. And if there's anything that either of you wanted to bring up there during this that you haven't got to yet, feel free to kind of add it into this answer as well. But kind of, what's next for you? What's next for for the Collins legacy?

Jason Collins  57:20  

Oh, well, for me, I get asked that a lot, and I almost feel guilty about my answer. It's not, I don't know. I think I'm living the life I'm choosing right now. I'm not doing a lot actively in business, other than investing. So I don't know. I have a I have a lot of free time, I would like to be more engaged in philanthropic endeavors and learning a little bit more and helping my sister and brother in law along the way in what they do, they're missionaries in Guatemala, so I think we've always had a heart for that, and I think we can invest our business experience and help them steward their efforts and energy in the most practical way, and encourage people that are working in that area to not devalue their work. They should be very proud of it, talk about it and not be afraid to ask people to invest in it, because there's so many people that want to support these endeavors, but they know so little about them. 

And yeah, for me, I don't want to be operating any businesses or starting new businesses. I'm just not fit for that at this point. Gladly acquire some businesses that are being managed by others, but yeah, so it'll reveal itself over time, but I just got to get a little bit more active and probably more intentional with what I say I want, and it takes a little bit of discipline again. Right now, I'm I'm resting a little bit, I guess, and recovering and then and I'll reengage in whatever excites me, but I'm really enjoying spending a lot of time with my wife and my kids, so yeah,

Matt Knight  59:45  

On sabbatical, enjoying life, yeah, figuring out what's what's next. 

Jason Collins  59:48  

Yeah, okay.

Ryan Collins  59:50  

Yeah. And for me, it's kind of on the go, I guess, with Longship, it's been a really interesting experience, with it being not too demanding time wise, and having two other partners or three, but two here active in Edmonton, where we can, I think we complement each other well. So it hasn't been a huge demand effort wise, to get it off the ground and get it going. We can see that depending on where we want to go with it, it could become quite time consuming, a lot more demanding. So we're trying to figure out, you know, where we want to go with that and and how much time we do have to and how much energy we have available to to take it to, what level we want it to go to, right? So it's, yeah, we'll see where it goes.

Matt Knight  1:00:34  

Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you both so much for coming in, sharing your time and kind of your wisdom. For me to kind of wrap things up in kind of a couple takeaways. It's first, you know, kind of the power of the people around you, whether it's your peers, whether it's your you know, your board, whether it's your key employees or your family, all those really kind of define our opportunities and our successes. And you know, without that kind of greater community that we surround ourselves with, that you know, things would be a whole lot harder, whether it's building a business or, you know, or managing other things.

Yeah, the other part is really just the, you know, the kind of that long term view that you talked about when going through the ownership transition, where, you know, you're trying to balance both, how are we going to do things in the future in a way that's fair for the, you know, kind of the family relationships, but also look at, kind of the short term things that we want to do, and the, you know, the targeted things about, you know, 10 years before we sell, and just being really transparent about those types of goals and initiatives. And then finally, I think it's just really the, you know, whether it's, you know, IPD or AI, which we didn't really get into, or whatever it is, it's not necessarily a new tool just to put in. It's, how do you build that into the system that you've built over the years, and how do you make sure that that culture and the emotional side and the feelings of the team that you've built within the company are able to adapt to that. So those changes that you put in are really only as good as that execution, and you know, the culture of that organization to absorb it.

Jason Collins  1:02:12  

Yeah, exactly. 

Matt Knight  1:02:13  

So again. Thank you so much for being here today and for sharing every kind of wisdom over the last hour.  

Ryan Collins  1:02:33  

Thanks man. 

Jason Collins  1:02:34  

Thanks for having us. 

Ryan Collins  1:02:37  

Appreciate it.  

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